Delivered but not Saved?

Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

-Hewbrews 3:16-19

This passage was brought up to me by three different people within the last two weeks. One person was wondering if the Isrealites never died, never entered the Promised Land or never entered Heaven. The second, assuming "my rest" means heaven, brought it up as an argument against my "Once Saved, Always Saved" stance. The third had no idea how this qualifies as a "warning against disbelief," as the NIV subtitle implies.

First of all, this word "rest," comes from the greek word, Katapausis, which means a resting place. It's most often used to describe the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended. In other words, it's refering to Heaven. So yes, I do believe this is telling us that a great number of the Isrealites who were led out of Egypt will not be with us in Heaven.

The obvious direct implication of this passage is telling us not to rebel against God. But for me, an indirect application, (and the point that I'm focussing on for this post,) is the condition of our human nature.

The Human Nature has never ceased to amaze me. As we look back, we see God actually walking and talking with Adam and Eve. Yet they were deceived and despite God's physical presence, they dis-obeyed. The Israelites saw prophesied plagues come to fruition. They had the Red Sea parted for them. Miracle after miracle and they still rebelled against God. Even the 12 Apostles , who walked and talked with God himself, couldn't get over themselves long enough to truly follow God.

I personally can attest to hundreds of wonderful things God has done for me, yet I still find myself rebelling against God. I can't explain why I rebel, but I do. This human nature of rebellion is one of the main reasons why I believe that we absolutely cannot "earn" our salvation. No matter what we do, we can never hold up to God's standards. We will always rebel against him. We are saved by grace and faith, but it has to be a Spirit led faith. I don't believe we are capable of keeping our faith in God on our own.

Hebrews 6:4-6

A verse was brought to my attention to refute my stance that a true believer can not lose his salvation. MikeT at Code Monkey Ramblings pointed out that Hebrews 6:4-6 seems to indicate that it is possible to "fall away" from the faith.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
-Hebrews 6:4-6

This would not mark the first time I've heard this case. I think there are two things that are very important to remember when trying to discern this passage:

1. We must interpret the verses in context with the surrounding verses.
When I read the rest of chapter 6, it seems very obvious to me that Paul is warning the church that there will be false converts within the church. These are people who never leave behind "the elementary teachings about Christ" and go on to maturity. In the verses immediately following our text, Paul talks about two lands receiving rain. The first produced a useful crop, but the second produced thorns and thistles. Yet they both received the same rain.
In the same way, before I was a true beleiver, I received the Holy Spirit's teaching, I felt his presence, and I was granted a small taste of the gift. Yet if I had died in my sins, all those feelings and teachings would have meant nothing. I would have been burned up, just like the land that produced only thorns and thissles.

2. We must interperet the verses in context with the whole Bible.
As with any theology, we can make the Bible say nearly anything we want, if we try hard enough. However, when we read a passage that seems to state something contrary to a clear theme of the Bible, we must look into it. While this passage seems like it might be saying that it is possible to lose ones salvation, verses like Ephesians 1:13-14, John 10:27-29, 1 Peter 1:23, Ephesians 4:30, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Peter 2:5, Ephesians 2:20-22, and 2 John 1:2 tell us that it is not possible. (I could give you about fifteen more if you'd like.)
If we truly beleive that the Bible is 100% true and does not contradict itself, then Hebrews 6:4-6 must mean something else. I have provided above what I beleive it truly means.

See the post entitle Eternal Security to learn more.

~Timm

Scripture Twisters: 1 Peter 3:19-20

"through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"
-1 Peter 3:19-20

A preacher, (who shall remain nameless,) said that this meant that when Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, eight of them heard the gospel message and were saved. He used this verse to justify his belief that those who dies in unbelief will be given a second chance to "accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior."

Let's take a more logical approach to the passage.

First of all, can anyone really make the argument that souls who were subjected to thousands of years of pain and torment would really not jump at the chance to get out of hades? Only eight believed at that point. I would think that once you are in Hell, you are no longer in disbeleif. That's just an assumption though.

Let's look at who the eight people who were saved were. The passage says, "In it only a few people...were saved.." What is "it?" there is only one object mentioned in this passage; the ark. So in the ark only a few were saved. How many people were in the ark? Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. That equals EIGHT. Actually, the mentioning of the eight being saved by water is a transition to the next point. In verse 21, it states, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

No Mr. un-named pastor, those who are suffering in Hell are not given another chance. Jesus very clearly states that Hell is for an eternity. Please stop using the word of God to spread false doctrines, and mis-lead the Church.

~Timm

More Rapture Talk

Referring back to the post entitled Rapture Delusions.

Geppy writes:

"I was raised a fundamental Christian, believing in the rapture and preaching it to others. Whereas it provides a good way to "scare" others to salvation, I no longer see it as biblical."
"All of the passages that were taught to support the rapture all of a sudden said the opposite."

Thanks for the friendly reminder via Email geppy. Between my non-desk job and the fact that I don't have a computer at home right now, keeping up with the blogging world is a constant struggle.

I agree. I would love to believe in a pre-trib rapture as it is a very convenient view, however I cannot find the scripture to support it. The Bible speaks of a first and second coming of Jesus. According to the pre-trib rapture, Jesus still has to come a second and third time.

All the scripture passages the pre-tribers give seem to have to be taken out of context in order to say what they want them to say. This is a prime example, (to me,) of making the bible validate an existing theology rather than letting the scriptures for your theology for you.

Refer to the original post for a more complete argument.

I'm sure I'll get ripped for this one. I'm sure Secret Rapture will be around too.

~Timm

Teaching our Children

"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
-2 Timothy 3:15

In case you haven't noticed, I have been absent for about a week. Last week we had Vacation Bible School at our church. I was asked to give a 15 minute lesson at the end of each day. This brought up a dilemma for me. You see, I've never really preached the gospel message to a child. I wasn't sure how to do it. But that brought up an even bigger question in my mind:

Are we teaching our children that the bible is a book of rules, or are we teaching them that the bible is a book that points us to salvation through the sanctifying work of Jesus Christ?

When Timothy was a child, his mother and Grandmother taught him the holy scriptures. It seems to me that they were probably drilled into his head much like we drilled memory verses into the heads of the children at VBS. But they did not teach Timothy t scriptures so that he would obey them, ("clean your room because that's what God wants you to do.") They taught him that he could never live up to God's standards. They taught him that he was sinner who needed a savior. They taught him to be mindful because the Lamb of God was coming. Timothy knew what he was looking for and because he had known the holy scriptures from infancy, he recognized the lamb when he heard about it. He was made wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

I did decide to deliver the full salvation message to those children on the last night of VBS. I told them about sin. I took them through the law of Moses. I pointed out that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I explained that "the wages of sin is death." And then I told them that this Christ that we had talked about all week had taken that payment. I told them that if they wanted to live with God in heaven, they needed to ask God for forgiveness of their sins and pray that he might grant them a repentant heart. I pleaded with them to trust Jesus as their savior.

15 children told me that the received the gift of eternal life that night. I don't know if they really did. That's for God to know. All I know is that I'm glad I didn't "dumb down" the message. I truly believe that kids understand more than we give them credit for. The curriculum given to us could have gone either way. We could have used it to present a bunch of rules that these children could never really live by, or we could have used it to present a Godly standard to show them that they need a savior just like any boring old adult does. I believe we took the right approach, and I wouldn't change a thing.

Bible Literacy

Here is the "Kroll Scale of Bible Literacy," by Woodrow Kroll:

-3 No knowledge of the Bible at all.
A Bible? What’s a Bible? I have never seen a Bible before and I
don’t know what you’re talking about.


-2 Familiarity with the Bible but no trust in its claims or authority.
A Bible? Yes, I have one someplace, but it’s just for people ike my grandmother. I don’t read the Bible because I don’t think it’s what some people claim it to be. It has no impact on my life.


-1 Familiarity with the Bible but minimal trust in it’s claims orxauthority and never read it or hear its truth so the Bible has little or no personal impact on your life.
A Bible? Yes, I have one but there’s not much in it that appeals to me. I don’t know if it’s what it claims to be or not. Who’s to say? It has little influence on me because I don’t read it.


+1 Trust in the Bible and its claims and authority but only occasionally read it or hear its truth so the Bible has only occasional personal impact on your life.
A Bible? Yes, it’s God’s Word. I believe it’s inspired by God and should be read and obeyed, but I only occasionally get around to reading it myself. In fact, I have three copies, but I don’t read any of them more than once a week.


+2 Trust in the Bible and its claims and authority and regularly read it or hear its truth with understanding so the Bible has regular personal impact on your life.
A Bible? Yes, I have one and read it regularly. I believe it’s inspired by God. I’m in a Bible reading program at church. I also read a verse or two along with my devotional book on a fairly regular basis.


+3 Trust in the Bible and its claims and authority and daily read it or hear its truth so the Bible produces a passion to connect personally with the Author and induces the reader to share Him with others.
A Bible? Read it? Are you kidding? I want to know God so badly that I devour the Bible daily. I used to read a couple of verses along with my devotional but now that’s not enough for me. Through reading God’s Word I get to know Him intimately and, as a result, I am energized to share God’s story with my friends and family.

Where do you fall on the scale?

Questions? Comments?
timmrees@yahoo.com

The Sermon

If anyone has some time to spare, here is a link to the sermon that I was speaking of. When you get there, click on the link "Transformers - Part 3."

Otherwise, here is an overview that I have comprised:

Romans 12:1-2 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
We can not speak as the world speaks because the way the world speaks leads to death.

Romans 8:6 "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace"
To speak as the world speaks is to separate us from the will of God.

Proverbs 18:21 "The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit."
Our tongues can save us or kill us. This is why we must watch what we say.

Galatians 6:7 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
We have to say the right things if we want God to bless us. "You can't speak words of death and expect to receive life."

Psalm 19:14 "May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer."
Both what I believe AND what I say MUST be acceptable to God. If I believe, but do not speak, I can not be saved.

Matthew 12:47 "For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Your words have the power to save you or kill you.

Proverbs 6:2 "you have been trapped by what you said, ensnared by the words of your mouth"
You can be trapped by your own words. (Timm's side note:PLEASE GO AND READ THIS ONE IN CONTEXT.)

Proverbs 12:14 "From the fruit of his lips a man is filled with good things.."
We can receive more good things than we can handle if we keep speaking words of life.

Mathew 12:33-34 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
We cannot speak of death if we believe.

Romans 10:8-10 "But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
We have to physically "confess" with our mouths. If you believe the entire gospel and believe in your heart, but never say the words, you will not be saved.

2 Corinthians 4:13 "t is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak"
We need to get our thinking, believing AND our words right to be saved.

The pastor then lead us in some "confessions." If we were to speak these confessions and truly believe them, it would then force God's hand in our favor. WHAT A DEAL!

There it is. Please, someone tell me if I'm way off base in disagreeing with this guy.

Not "I Will," but "Thy Will"

A few weeks ago, I visited a church were the pastor opened up his sermon by telling us that by the time we left that day, we would know exactly what God's will for our lives was. That's about the time he lost me. The rest of the message was about how we are saved by what we say rather than what we believe, (or more importantly, who we trust.) I left that church in a dazed and confused state, which was better than probably half of the congregation who left that church in a completely mis-informed state. He never did tell us exacly what God's will for our lives was, (at least not to my knowlege.) So I thought I would look into what the Bible says God's will for our lives is. Here are a few verses I found that clearly define exactly what God's wil is:

1 Thessolonians 4:2-3
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God.."
It is the will of God that we keep the commandments given to us by Jesus.

1 Thessolonians 5:18
"In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you"
Give thanks to God in ALL things.

1 Peter 4:19
"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."
It is God's will that we suffer for him, even to the point of persecution. Our praises to God. even through our trials, brings greater glory to his name.

1 John 2:16-17
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
It is God's will that we should live forever with him.

There is More Studying to be Done.

Thanks to Code Monkey Ramblings for the link.

You know the Bible 96%!

 

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